AJ.. any different you would do here?

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    • #25754

      Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t25/t50 Blinds – 9 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Fitte1000 (MP1): t2625 52.50 BBs
      div770 (MP2): t3015 60.30 BBs
      Yeugene (CO): t3670 73.40 BBs
      S.Glushkov (BTN): t2604 52.08 BBs
      szaki07 (SB): t2354 47.08 BBs
      tamotua (BB): t2672 53.44 BBs
      Zoolee67 (UTG): t3030 60.60 BBs
      Hero (UTG+1): t3095 61.90 BBs
      Herrm2801 (UTG+2): t3463 69.26 BBs

      Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is UTG+1 with J :spade: A :diamond:
      , Hero raises to t125, , div770 calls t125, , tamotua calls t75

      Flop: (t400) 9 :club: A :club: 5 :diamond: (3 players)
      tamotua checks, Hero bets t160, div770 calls t160, tamotua folds

      Turn: (t720) 4 :heart: (2 players)
      Hero checks, div770 bets t250, Hero calls t250

      River: (t1220) 6 :club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, div770 bets t2480 all in, Hero folds.

    • #33547

      standard

    • #33550

      I’d snap-call river unless I knew villain was a reg.

    • #33551

      i would raise more preflop and on turn….on 25/50 i would raise 275 preflop and 450 on turn….and still if he calls river is fold for me

    • #33555

      I would have bet hard on turn, or chk/raised there.. I don’t wanna see a club river…
      IMO, you let him get control of the hand already on flop , and I think your passive play in this hand gave him the opportunity to play the hand this way.

    • #33556

      bet turn and as said by prabhat if not a reg snap em

    • #33567

      Bet more on flop and bet turn. I always end up calling in these spots vs randoms in a 5$ tournie.

    • #33592
      Denny
      Member

      standard

      Standard play would be to fold preflop and a lot of professionals playing tournaments will fold AJ o/s from early as there are too many players to act behind with such a marginal hand.

      You are in a big trouble if re-raised preflop unless your plan is you are going to the races … Too many players just bet AJ without any thought in regards to the action behind.

      To all those who are advocating a bigger preflop bet … what exactly is your plan if someone repops you ?
      (shipping it with AJ?)
      AJ is not in great shape even to the flat call …

      That said .. the flop bet is terrible. I’d advocate a way larger bet say 75 – 80% of the pot. Hand is strong enough to try and milk bets in my opinion. This also ensures you either a) take it down there and then (not a bad play) or b) define the strength of his hand should he make the call whilst also it should deter a call or re-raise from a weak pair or lousy draw.

    • #33593
      sunny sen
      Member

      Standard play would be to fold preflop and a lot of professionals playing tournaments will fold AJ o/s from early as there are too many players to act behind with such a marginal hand.

      You are in a big trouble if re-raised preflop unless your plan is you are going to the races … Too many players just bet AJ without any thought in regards to the action behind.

      To all those who are advocating a bigger preflop bet … what exactly is your plan if someone repops you ?
      (shipping it with AJ?)
      AJ is not in great shape even to the flat call …

      That said .. the flop bet is terrible. I’d advocate a way larger bet say 75 – 80% of the pot. Hand is strong enough to try and milk bets in my opinion. This also ensures you either a) take it down there and then (not a bad play) or b) define the strength of his hand should he make the call whilst also it should deter a call or re-raise from a weak pair or lousy draw.

      using one of my favourite PG phrases:

      unreg pre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ur bolded part

    • #33601

      Standard play would be to fold preflop and a lot of professionals playing tournaments will fold AJ o/s from early as there are too many players to act behind with such a marginal hand.

      You are in a big trouble if re-raised preflop unless your plan is you are going to the races … Too many players just bet AJ without any thought in regards to the action behind.

      To all those who are advocating a bigger preflop bet … what exactly is your plan if someone repops you ?
      (shipping it with AJ?)
      AJ is not in great shape even to the flat call …

      That said .. the flop bet is terrible. I’d advocate a way larger bet say 75 – 80% of the pot. Hand is strong enough to try and milk bets in my opinion. This also ensures you either a) take it down there and then (not a bad play) or b) define the strength of his hand should he make the call whilst also it should deter a call or re-raise from a weak pair or lousy draw.

      Sigh. Unreg pre seems right.

      Flop bet is perfect btw and everything in your reasoning is the opposite of what we should be doing.

    • #33605
      Denny
      Member

      Sigh. Unreg pre seems right.

      Flop bet is perfect btw and everything in your reasoning is the opposite of what we should be doing.

      The flop bet is perfect … why on earth would you price in someone in on a potential draw or allow them cheap cards when your hand is far from being the stone cold nuts or the best hand?

      Why would you not make them pay for the card ?

      Explain why not …. enlighten us as “everything in your reasoning is the opposite of what we should be doing” means nothing …

    • #33606
      Denny
      Member

      using one of my favourite PG phrases:

      unreg pre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ur bolded part

      Explain .. PG and unreg pre ?
      Not familiar with those terms?

    • #33612

      PG= Poker Guru

      Unreg= Unregister.

      It means if you really believe everything you wrote, the most +EV decision you can make is to not register for the tournament.

    • #33613

      I’m still not sure whether you are trolling or not, so I’ll indulge you a bit.

      We don’t make a huge bet precisely because our hand is not the nuts and we don’t want to inflate the pot. We are fine with him calling with draws, whether or not he’s getting the “right price” because draws are not the only thing in his range so your bet sizing can’t be based only on the possibility he has a draw.

      And everything you say is out of some textbook written by some live player in 2002 or earlier. Almost all your ideas on how to play poker are simply wrong.

    • #33637
      Denny
      Member

      Insightful analysis there ..

      AJ is cracking hand UTG .. golden, you’ll never bleed chips playing from UTG like that.

      Next you be telling me if I three bet your raise preflop you’re still calling in order to see the flop and outplay someone from OOP.

      And I am the one trolling ?

      You might get away with that shite in online tourneys but in live play you don’t get the option to simply register for the next one when you go bust.

    • #33650

      U probably can only fold AJo in EP , in a reg infested field.. In a $5 tourney open it all day. Check snap his A** and say meh if he turns over a flush…

    • #33666

      You might get away with that shite in online tourneys but in live play you don’t get the option to simply register for the next one when you go bust.

      Don’t see how this matters. Obv anyone should just make the most +EV play possible regardless of whether you can or cannot register for another tournament. Even if I could play only one tournament in my life, I’d play it the most +EV ways.

      Also, no if I got 3-bet I’d just fold, that doesn’t make raising bad.

    • #33674
      Denny
      Member

      Don’t see how this matters. Obv anyone should just make the most +EV play possible regardless of whether you can or cannot register for another tournament. Even if I could play only one tournament in my life, I’d play it the most +EV ways.

      Also, no if I got 3-bet I’d just fold, that doesn’t make raising bad.

      OK .. explain to me why raising with AJ from UTG +1 ( OOP ) is considered EV+ ( a full explanation ) given that it plays horribly postflop against AK, AQ and most pairs and you will be OOP post-flop. I really would like to hear a detailed explanation on this.

    • #33676

      Because people fold pre and we can take the blinds.

      Because people people play aces we dominate.

      Because contrary to what you think AJ actually plays pretty good against most pairs.

      Because you aren’t OOP when the blinds call, which is often.

      I don’t really see how to mathematically prove this, but I think its pretty basic that AJo is +EV from any position and if you really think it isn’t you should explain why AQ and AK are so radically different (I am sure you will come up with something but there is not much chance of you being right). Anyway, I am not interested in a full length wall-of-text debate with a $.02 stakes player about the basics of poker. If you genuinely want to learn, just accept what I am telling you. If you don’t want to learn or think you know poker better than me, that’s fine, and we should just agree to disagree.

    • #33680
      Denny
      Member

      Because people fold pre and we can take the blinds.

      Because people people play aces we dominate.

      Because contrary to what you think AJ actually plays pretty good against most pairs.

      Because you aren’t OOP when the blinds call, which is often.

      I don’t really see how to mathematically prove this, but I think its pretty basic that AJo is +EV from any position and if you really think it isn’t you should explain why AQ and AK are so radically different (I am sure you will come up with something but there is not much chance of you being right). Anyway, I am not interested in a full length wall-of-text debate with a $.02 stakes player about the basics of poker. If you genuinely want to learn, just accept what I am telling you. If you don’t want to learn or think you know poker better than me, that’s fine, and we should just agree to disagree.

      I would agree to disagree and I may have ignored this if not for the little dig at the $.02 stakes poker .. let me enlighten you. I have played in the UK live and won several tournaments in Edinburgh Glasgow and Blackpool at various limits including PL and NL formats. Plus not the turbo structure commonly favoured in Goa.

      Online is a practice arena and I have account with William Hill, Bodog, 888, Pokerstars and many others …

      I also played in the 1st IPC in Goa and was unlucky because I managed to cripple a 50k+ stack by running my aces into someone who reshoved allin with KJ suited.

      So I think I can safely rule myself out as $0.2 stakes player ….. but thank you for the wee insult , very gracious of you. (always the mark of someone who has lost the argument or cannot articulate themselves)

      Though frankly what that has to do with any advice given baffles me and quite frankly reflects on you.

      As for learning the game; I study anything I can get my hands on and have piles of decent magazines with true professional players advice who don’t contradict themselves.

      I don’t pretend to know it all, like some people and my motto is you are always learning ..

      The fact that EV+ plays is based entirely on Maths and you ‘don’t know how to prove it’ is astounding if not unsurprising.

      The rest of of your ‘proof’ is equally unsurprising.

      Because people fold pre and we can take the blinds.
      People also call and raise and you are frankly OOP

      Because people people play aces we dominate. People play Aces and overpairs and pairs which have you beat

      Because contrary to what you think AJ actually plays pretty good against most pairs. Maybe but even then you require to hit your outs and you are still dominated by Aces KK QQ AK AQ JJ and there are 7 left to act

      Because you aren’t OOP when the blinds call, which is often Your OOP to 5 others before you even get to the blinds.

      I have never said it is 100% wrong to to raise .. however to categorically state folding is 100% wrong is utter guff in my opinion.

      EV+ strategy is predominantly a cash game strategy adopted for tournament play and combined with ICM … which takes into acount stack size, blinds and stage of the tourney .. Your calculations should consider other factors than pure pot odds.

      If your going to give ‘advice’ using EV+ strategy you should be able to do the calculations and explain it .. not for me to prove otherwise .. I’m not the EXPERT remember …. you are , or so you lead me to believe.

      I have no ‘ego’ about my decisions being questioned .. ridiculed with no substance to back it up .. entirely different matter.

      You also stated here you would happily fold if they come over the top .. yet in another thread .. you simply stated .. snap call it EV+ .. again no calculations based on the ICM/EV + strategy

      FT bubble [350/491]
      ##########################################
      PokerStars Game 84982043754 / Tournament
      Table 613011321 7 –
      Blinds : 4000/8000 – Ante 1000.0
      ##########################################

      9 players
      [SB] HHTottiHH (364375)
      yamanb89 (17757
      [1] kaurimangat (120651)
      [2] PACHACU102 (136830)
      [3] jetmukesh (333252)
      [4] limalow (107346)
      [5] krešo2903 (654752)
      [6] androman35 (145572)
      Prenys (204110)

      jetmukesh :Ah :Jh Initial Pot: 21000



      jetmukesh raises to 20000





      yamanb89 is All in

      Your answer …

      Snap call readless. This is an online Stars tourney, and AJ is ahead of 20 BB reshove ranges. Get it in.

      Definition of a ‘value shove’ from the SB/BB

      A Value Shove (or over-shove) is when you overbet the pot for value – it tends to involve a committment of shoving your stack all-in. The term value shoving is used because of the value that is created from players calling you. It’s commonly used preflop, however is can generally be used during any stage of a hand, and is most often utilised in late tournament stage strategy. For example, lets say I’m shortstacked with AQs on the SB and there are plenty of deep stack calling us down lightly. By shoving our stack into the pot, we can maximum value from other opponents who are calling us with dominated hands like AJo and QKs.

      Now I’m no expert .. but snap calling here doesn’t appear to be EV+ in any shape or form … but do enlighten me with detailed reasoning; after all .. YOUR ALWAYS RIGHT !!

      (from your reply .. it appeared to read it Pokerstars, he’s a donk (the opponent on whom you have no info) get it allin; or am I mistaken ?)

      Happy to point you articles on the web (tons of them) if you need to refresh your memory on how to do these calculations and then you can show us all how it is applied, but I seriously don’t think I learn anything at all .. by taking your word for it.

      Honestly I don’t think you have a scooby about how to calculate it and I don’t pretend to. I prefer to simply looking at the blinds, my stack size, my postion at the table, my image, my two starting cards (sometimes irrelevant) my opponents stack size, whether they are smart, passive, weak, aggressive, gung-ho .. it also depends on whether the bubble is imminent, passed by, whether the next money jumps are significant .. (personally I find that more than enough gets the jobs done and there’s plenty of EV+ strategists to get money in the pot when needed)

      I simply don’t look at AJ and state it’s EV+ from anywhere in any situation .. and I know plenty professional in the UK that would disagree with that statement .. but hey what do they know.

      But posting advice on here and no explanation is bad practice. You may not (obviously don’t) agree with what I write but at least I take the time and effort to explain my reasoning for those wishing to read it ..

      I obviously give the readers the credit for being able to read something and form their own opinion as to what has been said and they are free to disregard it.

      But to state I am the best .. just accept it .. is frankly idiotic in the extreme.

      So, as you eloquently put it … Let’s just agree to disagree … and say no more .. Fine by me !!

    • #33688

      It speaks volumes that you can’t understand the difference between folding AJ to a re-raise 100 BBs deep and snapping a shove 20 BBs deep.

      Your wall of quoted text about value shoves (which this isn’t) ignores the fact that in an online tournament people will (quite correctly) shove 20 BB with hands a lot worse than AJ. If you don’t understand the mathematics behind re-shove ranges and call ranges that’s fine and if your general demeanour hadn’t been so authoritative while being absolutely wrong, I might have taken the time to explain the math, but as it is I couldn’t be bothered.

      The things I am saying are mainly intended for people who have been in the mentorship program and a certain basic level of understanding is presumed. It is worthy of a two hour long lecture to explain why people shove 20 BBs with hands like 22 or J9s and what our calling ranges should be. I am posting here on the threads of people who already know the logic behind this, and don’t need me posting walls of text for it. This doesn’t mean I don’t know my theory and math. When I say +EV I mean + $EV and not +CEV.

      As far as I can see you are the only one here arguing from questionable authority- (winning unknown tournaments at unknown stakes) anecdotal quotes from unknown professionals and possibly outdated advice from magazines.

    • #33689
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      good raise pre… c-bet also looks fine… but why did you check the turn? u should have bet all the streets and snap call river unless u had a good read on him…

    • #25755
      saby
      Member

      On floding pre…yes its a option if u dont play flops well…but thats where money is to be made…IF this was a SNG i am folding AJo from EP…but in a MTT i think u need to look at flops…

      Lol at repopping…when repoped u need to get rid of AJo thats all…but u cant be waiting for hands that u will reship to a repop to open…(man does this make any sense).

      Everthing in this hand is perfect…i would just make it abt 240 on flop as there is a club draw…and i am never checking the turn on this board cos it makes life difficult on the river…

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