November 3, 2012 at 6:24 pm #26314
SB: t1395584 M = 12.14
BB: t392274 M = 3.41
Hero (CO): t683196 M = 5.94
BTN: t1302946 M = 11.33
Pre Flop: (t115000) Hero is CO with K :club: K :heart:
Hero raises to t150000, , SB calls t125000,
Flop: (t390000) 8 :heart: 8 :club: T :club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t523196 all in, SB calls t523196
Turn: (t1436392) 6 :spade: (2 players – 1 is all in)
River: (t1436392) A :heart: (2 players – 1 is all in)
Final Pot: t1436392
SB shows A :spade: 6 :heart: (two pair, Aces and Eights)
Hero shows K :club: K :heart: (two pair, Kings and Eights)
SB wins t1436392
That so hurt came 4th in 5.10 HT 2.5G and think there was a small stack. Unbelievable!! Well beats are what they are BEEEAATS!!
November 3, 2012 at 7:27 pm #34871
Well, his play isn’t as moronic as you seem to think, though of course this is a terrible beat.
November 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm #34872
Well for one thing I am sure he didnt go through all the options you are going to list out in defense about his moronic play because it was snap-called. See, if you want to push stacks short-handed you are the raiser than actually call so thats ruled out, if he shoved PF that was perfectly normal. Calling a T88 flop with A6 on a shove for half your stack there is absolutely no defense that I can see. Call is just a button that people use to spin the roulette when they bet on a single number. They hit they are lucky which is the case here.
November 4, 2012 at 8:23 am #34878
His pre-flop play was retarded for sure.
Mathematically against a typical shoving range here, A6 is a pretty good call on the flop.
Very few people open shove KK there, and the shoving range there after a min-raise typically includes lots of gunk that A6 beats pretty handily…
It’s very natural to think of the opponent as a moron when he sucks out on you. He probably is a moron and his pre-flop flat is pretty bizzare. But if I was magically placed on this flop against an unknown in a $5 hyper I might not fold that flop either.
Poker is about ranges and math, not about some hands being calling hands and others being folding ones. The fact that you can’t conceive of calling with Ace high there against a board that completely misses your range- No way T88 hits your range, and very unlikely that an average donk in a $5 over-bet shoves any kind of strong hand on this board.
If you don’t believe me, some examples of donk-betting ranges and why you don’t need monsters to play against them…these aren’t isolated examples…I could give you 50 more along this broad theme. In general open over-bet shoves and donk-shoves aren’t really strong and I don’t blame him for thinking Ace high could be good lots of the time.
PokerStars Hand #88662119548: Tournament #634242978, $24.50+$0.50 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level V (100/200) – 2012/11/03 20:13:21 IST [2012/11/03 10:43:21 ET]
Table ‘634242978 31′ 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: SAMSCOTT3 (2440 in chips)
Seat 2: SILUR28 (2023 in chips)
Seat 3: gmenz007 (5830 in chips)
Seat 4: robbyefe (3900 in chips)
Seat 5: g13sakis (2320 in chips)
Seat 6: SuicideSpree (4410 in chips)
SAMSCOTT3: posts the ante 40
SILUR28: posts the ante 40
gmenz007: posts the ante 40
robbyefe: posts the ante 40
g13sakis: posts the ante 40
SuicideSpree: posts the ante 40
robbyefe: posts small blind 100
g13sakis: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SuicideSpree [Ks Qs]
SuicideSpree: raises 200 to 400
SILUR28: calls 400
robbyefe: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Td 9c 5s]
robbyefe: bets 3460 and is all-in
SuicideSpree: raises 510 to 3970 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (510) returned to SuicideSpree
*** TURN *** [Td 9c 5s] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Td 9c 5s 9d] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
robbyefe: shows [Qc Jc] (a pair of Nines)
SuicideSpree: shows [Ks Qs] (a pair of Nines – Ace+King kicker)
SuicideSpree collected 8560 from pot
robbyefe finished the tournament in 409th place
PokerStars Hand #88662040068: Tournament #634242978, $24.50+$0.50 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level IV (80/160) – 2012/11/03 20:11:35 IST [2012/11/03 10:41:35 ET]
Table ‘634242978 31’ 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: SAMSCOTT3 (1120 in chips)
Seat 2: SILUR28 (3893 in chips)
Seat 3: gmenz007 (6240 in chips)
Seat 4: robbyefe (2970 in chips)
Seat 5: g13sakis (2430 in chips)
Seat 6: SuicideSpree (4270 in chips)
SAMSCOTT3: posts the ante 30
SILUR28: posts the ante 30
gmenz007: posts the ante 30
robbyefe: posts the ante 30
g13sakis: posts the ante 30
SuicideSpree: posts the ante 30
SAMSCOTT3: posts small blind 80
SILUR28: posts big blind 160
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SuicideSpree [Td Kd]
SuicideSpree: raises 160 to 320
SILUR28: calls 160
*** FLOP *** [4s 8c 6c]
SILUR28: bets 640
SuicideSpree: raises 3280 to 3920 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3280) returned to SuicideSpree
SuicideSpree collected 2180 from pot
SuicideSpree: doesn’t show hand
November 4, 2012 at 3:29 pm #34883
Thanks for the detail and I understood the reasons why he could call but given the spot it was pretty bizzare. As for my shove:
1. Yes I wanted a caller.
2. This play is unexploitable. FFS its HT I am not playing pot control 4-handed HT FT. Even if I had bet out I am sure he would have pushed to rep an 8 or to get a fold from me with a small stack still in there.
3. I am quite amazed when given a spot you would have done the same. Its HT, yes I would have a wide range on an open shove (so no weightage to PFR? – it was 3x raise not min) but in addition to opponent ranges one has to think also bout his odds of winning the hand. The only hands he could be marginally ahead is all paint combinations without A and pairs <66. I cant calc % of these hands but as a guess I would say he is ahead maybe 10% of the time. But as I said earlier I dont think none of this went through his mind, he just stuck it out to see what I had and would still nurse a decent stack for another shove.
The first example is pretty standard and I dont think is relevant to the context and the second one is kind of on the same lines. In both cases they are standard moves nothing out of the blue and early stages of a HT is more of a requirement. Show me a similar example with $$ jumps and I am convinced of his play and your defense to the hilt 🙂
In any case, flips I take but this was just such a bad beat for a jump in pay. Hopefully I will run better tonight GL2U and GLA!!
November 4, 2012 at 4:29 pm #34886
I think you are missing the point a bit. It’s easy for you to say he can be ahead only 10% of time against your range. He doesn’t magically know your range. Against an average unknown guy’s at $5 tourney’s range, that call is marginally bad at worst.
Another point you are missing is that the % chance of his winning the hand is what matters, and not % of time he is ahead. He probably needs around 40% equity here and its worth noting that even against your MONSTER hand he had around 20%….
He is not risking his tourney life, so the $$ jumps are not as relevant as if his tourney life was at stake. The point you are again missing, like a true Indian nit, is that just because you would play tighter with more money at stake doesn’t mean that he would or he should. If I mathematically needed 45% equity to make a call and I had 50% equity, I would make the call whether I was playing $5 tourney or I was or on the bubble of the WSOP Main Event Final Table. Unlike many others I don’t think big stakes are an argument for deviating from optimal ply.
Also, your play is unexploitable but also pretty terrible (just like shoving 500 BB Aces preflop is unexploitable but bad) You would make a lot more money in the long run by min-raising pre and making small bet on the flop to induce a shove from him.
November 5, 2012 at 6:21 am #34890
I did agree on the equity part on my last post that he still has a decent stack to work with.
It started off as a bad beat rant and yourself are missing a few points from my replies “I am not playing pot control 4-handed HT FT” so there is a lot of difference between inducing shoves at a HT and a normal blind structure. Do not assume my plays as your replies are condescending and I dont need an AA example of unexploitable plays.
Coming to the point i didnt go so far as you. Given the spot for me thats pretty neatly nitty if you want to go ahead and call if in the same spot. Well we both have different definitions of nitty I guess.
Nitty: “He doesn’t magically know your range.” Given the events until his CALL action if you dont even consider opponent’s hand range there you got your definition.
Well if we throw hand ranges out of the window we might as well call all streets for all our stack at all times and just play the board.
“Another point you are missing is that the % chance of his winning the hand is what matters, and not % of time he is ahead.” Very true but I just gave more detail regarding his A6 hand for your understanding. He is marginally ahead on a specific set of hands and rest of mostly he is dominated or crushed which would lead us to calculating his odds of winning the hand. The last time I checked poker is still played on odds. I am not expecting him/anyone to do all the math but there is a term called odds which you keep in mind when calling into a pot.
You are so contradicting yourself in the post. At times you say its a $5 game who cares a hoot and then you give me advice about how to play KK at the same game.
Coming to the replies its so result oriented. if i had min raised i would have got a response i shld have raised more bcos its 4-handed FT and a HT and a small stack in play. Now that i raised 3x i am being told make it 2x and then induce a shove. Surely if that is the play i had made i would have been told make your flop bet larger so that he doesnt exploit you by pushing and lose out to ace on river. Very convenient!
Lastly, all comments are in general appreciated you dont need to go overboard to put your point across. Having etiquette at a poker table or poker forums would help build a player. Dont go about calling people names just because its an online forum or otherwise.
November 5, 2012 at 8:34 am #34891
I am not being condescending. Please show me where I called you any name? You are the one brandishing accusations needlessly.
I am also not an idiot, so please don’t assume I would tell you something else had you played correctly. This is always an induce because you have a monster, and even with ICM considerations you want action.
As for magically knowing your range: Yes he should think about what your range is. My point is that you have in reality a very tight range for this shove, but most players at a $5 tournament do not, and HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY REASON to believe you are so tight.
I am not saying $5 so it doesn’t matter. I am saying $5 so average player at this stake is absolutely terrible, so calls which might be bad at $215 would be good here. There is a difference.
I am not saying you should play pot control. I am saying you shouldn’t be trying to make hands that are miles behind you fold on a relatively safe board with shallow stacks behind.
As for etiquette, I think its highly inappropriate for you to say I am lacking ettiquette and calling you names, when I have done no such thing. Again please show me where I called you any name.
November 6, 2012 at 1:27 pm #26315
Ok first of all my understanding of a nit is ‘dimwitted’ in general. Upon your response I looked it up it seems like rock pokerwise. So I will apologize for misconstruing your term.
As for condescending – I took offense because you gave me an example of AA PF shove for 500BB, that is so different from the current context. I had raised PF and the action was on flop and my play is not entirely questionable. Yes it could be tweaked for a different play but in the same vein my play is optimal as well. I keep saying it out loud its 4-handed HT FT at 25k/50k blinds, with 390K in pot and 520K behind and a small stack in play, inducing shove from a big stack would be the last thing on my mind, I will get it in when ahead.
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