How do I play KK oop on a slippery board without turning my hand into a bluff ??

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    • #25489

      At a stack size of 6000, blind levels 50/100, I open Kd Ks UTG+1 to 225, reg agro player in MP1 3-bets to 450 … table folds to me … My move here ??

      Once the flop opens As8h9h, shud I be c-betting here ?? sizing ??

      Turn Jh …

      River 2d …

    • #32985

      I would have 4b to 1100.. lets say he flats.. flop as you say.. pot is 2200.. in my recent posts I have discussed similar problem.. and the consensus has been to check the flop.. if it goes check check .. lead out on turn.. if it goes check-bet, then call.. re-eval on turn..

    • #32986

      Look, there’s a fundamental problem with the way you have posted this hand.

      Just post the whole thing together. I can’t answer what to do on flop if I don’t know pre, and the same logic extends to turn and river.

    • #32988

      well prabhat .. I 4-bet to 900 (realised later the sizing was wrong)… MP called …

    • #32989

      I mean give the whole hand….. asking for advice on all streets while not disclosing action is very confusing. Just give all the action please, I don’t want to give turn advice based on speculations about what happened on the flop and likewise for river.

      Please post the entire hand….

    • #32993

      prabhat … I would like some views on how I should’ve played each street … u can start with ur views as if only the flop was open … n we can continue discussion on each street one by one …

    • #33010

      Lol!

    • #33011

      And Laveena, alright so I think a check is mandatory on the flop.

      This flop is an absolute disaster. I don’t think this guy’s 3-bet call range is wide at all. It’s very unlikely he ever has suited connectors etc. This allows us to put him on a narrowish range of 99+/AJs+AQo+.

      The problem here is the Ace hits a lot of his range and is the absolute worst card in the deck as far as the rest is concerned because we may have stacked QQ/JJ on an under-flop but that’s not going to happen now.

      What I am going to say now may sound really shocking, but unless you think this guy is capable of bluffing, just c/f this flop. It’s a really tricky spot. The pot now has 2k while your stack has 5,000 as a consequence flatting 1 street isn’t really an option in this situation because its not going to tell you anything more about his hand. I think the vast majority of the time we are going to see this guy check it back, but if he doesn’t unless he’s a really bluffy player, just fold. Especially because, even if he is bluffy that means he’s likely to fire again so we can’t call 1 street unless we are willing to put it in.

    • #33007

      Ok … so once the flop is checked around, what shud be our action on the turn … ??

    • #33009
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      hey laveena imo i would have opened pre with a raise of 3x – 3.5x and my 4bet raise would be around 4x – 4.5x. your 4bet was really small.

      if he flats your 4bet then we should keep in on a narrow range like JJ+, AJs+, AQo+, AKo+

      with the A on the flop it become a very tricky situation for us and a good option here would be a check / fold (well not and easy fold but a good option)

    • #33006

      Yet again, we get the worst card in the deck. We check again, because he is still not going to fold any better hand than us. Meanwhile JJ is now ahead of us and the flush completing makes it even less likely that a worse hand will call any value bet. The tougher question here is whether to call a bet or not and that really requires a read on the opponent. The problem is after we check twice, if he is a good player he is going to bet almost 100% of his range, I should think either as a bluff because we have shown extreme weakness or for value, because our actions will have convinced him he’s ahead. I’d be inclined to call a bet on the turn but fold to another on the river.

    • #33005
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      Yet again, we get the worst card in the deck. We check again, because he is still not going to fold any better hand than us. Meanwhile JJ is now ahead of us and the flush completing makes it even less likely that a worse hand will call any value bet. The tougher question here is whether to call a bet or not and that really requires a read on the opponent. The problem is after we check twice, if he is a good player he is going to bet almost 100% of his range, I should think either as a bluff because we have shown extreme weakness or for value, because our actions will have convinced him he’s ahead. I’d be inclined to call a bet on the turn but fold to another on the river.

      +1

    • #33000

      whats the apt move on river after turn is checked around ??

    • #33018
      sunny sen
      Member

      bet flop

      as played bet river, he reps nothing except a fish slow-playing 2 streets , your hand is face up as kk/qq

    • #33032

      Ya this does sound shocking!. If we 4-bet pre and check on ace high flop with a flush draw, I think we are just announcing our hand as KK/QQ !!
      Smart player with any hand will take it away from us there and then!.
      I think check folding is weak… check calling is weaker as we are putting in more money for him to take on turn and river! IMO we have to c-bet around 1100 there.

    • #33034
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      trollguru whoever u are. if you dont like the advice then just correct where u think i am wrong dont try to act all smart here. this is a forum where people give their own advice and if wrong are corrected and that how people learn here. so please sit back relax and try n increase your bankroll.

      cheers

    • #33035
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      thanks for the advice jagdeep. cheers

    • #33058

      Ya this does sound shocking!. If we 4-bet pre and check on ace high flop with a flush draw, I think we are just announcing our hand as KK/QQ !!
      Smart player with any hand will take it away from us there and then!.
      I think check folding is weak… check calling is weaker as we are putting in more money for him to take on turn and river! IMO we have to c-bet around 1100 there.

      + 3.50

    • #33076
      Arjun Parmar
      Member

      @trollguru k no worries bud. ill work on it. 🙂

    • #33079

      Jagdeep that’s just absolutely wrong. First of all if you have AK/AQ there’s no rule against checking flop. And please learn we DO NOT turn good hands into bluffs. Betting KK here folds worse hands out and donates money to better ones, it is just absolutely fundamentally wrong….

      If you actually think a smart player will try to “take it away with any hand” then just check/call everything and don’t click the fold button at any point and let him donate with “any hand”. Either way, betting there is bad and its not even close or debatable.

    • #33082
      sunny sen
      Member

      Jagdeep that’s just absolutely wrong. First of all if you have AK/AQ there’s no rule against checking flop. And please learn we DO NOT turn good hands into bluffs. Betting KK here folds worse hands out and donates money to better ones, it is just absolutely fundamentally wrong….

      If you actually think a smart player will try to “take it away with any hand” then just check/call everything and don’t click the fold button at any point and let him donate with “any hand”. Either way, betting there is bad and its not even close or debatable.

      checking kk/qq is ok only if you have ak/aq/aa in ur checking range here, personally im paranoid with balance and do not like being unbalanced in most spots, blanket statements like above are utterly wrong

    • #33083

      Maybe check entire range is correct then, its what I do in this spot, but I can’t see how betting KK/QQ there can be good. I would really appreciate if you could show me some way in which betting KK here is a +Ev play with these stacks etc…it seems to be losing play for sure and what we want to do with the other hands in our range doesn’t change that as far as I can see.

      I dislike blanket statements as much as anyone, but you have to think he’s going to fold an Ace for a bet here to be good, and I find that really difficult to see.

      Edit: On further thought, given your background I can sort of understand where you are coming from. If there are huge dynamics/game is extremely advanced and you think these guys will actually stack off with QQ/JJ or something like that, then I guess nothing at all wrong with firing with KK but given these dynamics, I don’t really think that’s the case.

    • #33085
      Simon Mint
      Participant

      Wow! I thought I was tight! I agree with everyone here that says checking the flop and turn reveals our hand as KK or QQ.
      As OP mentioned this guy is a reg lag which means he could have just about anything – suited connectors, bad suited ace, etc.
      I agree that the 4bet was too weak. I would have made it at least 1100-1200. We simply do not want someone with Ace rag calling us.
      If he does have Ace rag, if we show a lot of strength we can push any Ace rag off the hand by the river.
      We simply cannot play scared because there’s an Ace on the board. If we’re gonna check call on any street we’re gonna lose 40% to 50% of our stack by the time this hand is done and dusted. What’s the point in the end if you’re gonna presume villain had JJ or Any Ace and fold to 2 barrels??
      The only justification for folding the hand would be a very strong read that the opponent has a strong Ace that he won’t fold like AQ+.
      My simple solution…don’t let this hand to go flop cheap. If it does get to flop bet bet bet. I’d rather go down in a blaze of glory with KK rather than lose half my stack…in the end not finding out what villain has. If we do end up going to showdown we are also letting the others know that we’re not gonna be bullied.
      I’m sure gonna get flamed for this but imho a lot of overanalysis goes on in these boards. Simple situations get over complicated for no reason at all.

    • #33089
      sunny sen
      Member

      Maybe check entire range is correct then, its what I do in this spot, but I can’t see how betting KK/QQ there can be good. I would really appreciate if you could show me some way in which betting KK here is a +Ev play with these stacks etc…it seems to be losing play for sure and what we want to do with the other hands in our range doesn’t change that as far as I can see.

      I dislike blanket statements as much as anyone, but you have to think he’s going to fold an Ace for a bet here to be good, and I find that really difficult to see.

      Edit: On further thought, given your background I can sort of understand where you are coming from. If there are huge dynamics/game is extremely advanced and you think these guys will actually stack off with QQ/JJ or something like that, then I guess nothing at all wrong with firing with KK but given these dynamics, I don’t really think that’s the case.

      if u check ur entire range all the time(doubt that u/anybody else does tht though) then well u can bluffcatch with KK here, also balance has nothing to do with dynamics/game flow.

      Aggro villain rarely has AK here, on the other hand our unintentional small 4 bet makes us look super strong. In decent BI donkaments esp live, I’m 100% cbetting here, sizing should be interesting though.

    • #33092

      Are you c-betting because you want Aces or better to fold or for value? Or just because you want to be balanced?

    • #33096

      sunny/prabhat.. adding a bit to your above deliberations..

      @prabhat imo we would bet our AK AQ here .. its not a dry board (villain would have peeled wide due to the small inducing 4-bet)..

      @sunny
      would you c-bet a dry flop here as well? …

    • #25490
      sunny sen
      Member

      Are you c-betting because you want Aces or better to fold or for value? Or just because you want to be balanced?

      im betting for value here, Ax is only part of his range, but stacks being shallow (50bb left?) how much to cbet is a good Q, i think 1/3 bet (or smaller?) looks decent, this will get the job done and make the hand much easier to play… probably in online mtts checking here to try and get to showdown as cheap as possible or sigh-folding could/should be ok (massively expolitable vs good regs in big buy-in mtts?) , but in decent buyin live mtt/100bb cash tables in a HU pot cbet is ok..

      sunny/prabhat.. adding a bit to your above deliberations..

      @prabhat imo we would bet our AK AQ here .. its not a dry board (villain would have peeled wide due to the small inducing 4-bet)..

      @sunny
      would you c-bet a dry flop here as well? …

      dont see a reason not to bet a dry flop, in 4bet pots it is really unnnatural to not cbet, it either screams of slowplaying a big hand that will not get paid if played this way or a small 4bet with air that is giving up or AK which missed.. ofc if u hv specific reads on villain that he is stabby if checked to then thats a different story.

      edit: also keep in mind we 4bet frm utg+1

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