Is my thought process right ???

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    • #25451
      shashank.s
      Member

      Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t700/t1400 Blinds + t175 – 9 players – View hand 1791657
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      No solid reads on the Villain. Seen him calling raises pre n fold to flop/turn bets on a couple of occasions.
      (seems to be waiting for a bigger payouts, <100 odd left)
      I have been rather active, opening a lot of hands n taking down most uncontested pre / on the flop.

      UTG+1: t17470 M = 4.75
      UTG+2: t22281 M = 6.06
      Hero (MP1): t109939 M = 29.92
      MP2: t21607 M = 5.88
      CO: t27927 M = 7.60
      BTN: t34957 M = 9.51
      SB: t181443 M = 49.37
      BB: t85119 M = 23.16
      UTG: t15463 M = 4.21

      Pre Flop: (t3675) Hero is MP1 with 3 Q
      , Hero raises to t2800, , SB calls t2100, BB calls t1400

      Flop: (t9975) 9 3 4 (3 players)
      SB checks, BB bets t4200, Hero calls t4200, SB folds

      Turn: (t18375) J (2 players)
      BB bets t5600, Hero raises to t12764

      This is the range i had him on; 22+,A6s+,56s+,A10o+,JQs+,KQo+

      I am re-raising him on the turn to get an idea on where i stand, also cuz he has missed most of his range & could be drawing a larger number of times. Hence there are just too many river cards that could put me in a spot of bother.

      My plan is if he calls, i will probably check the river behind him or fold to a bet depending on the river & bet size.
      If he re-raise, i will flat & take my outs to the river & re-evaluate.

      Questions;
      1. Is my line of thought right ?
      2. Am i losing value, as in are worse hands always folding & better hands always calling/re-raising??

    • #32770

      Fold pre.
      Its such a marginal hand to be raising , that too from MP. This is highly -ev . If you want make such raises to balance your range, do it with hands which have more equity and flop well, like 89s or something.

      As played pre , fold flop. I mean its ok to peel one vs fishes, but that donk bet on that kind of a board just looks scary, and not many cards help you on the turn/river, I mean you are just going to face more tough decisions if you decide to continue.

      As played flop, just flat turn. Helps you pot control and makes river decisions easier incase you miss your daw. What is you plan if he 4bets shoves on you ??

      And the range you have put him on includes sets OESDs and a LOT of hands that beat you. Just fold pre man.
      Thought process severely flawed. read some starting hands chart etc just to get a basic idea of positions etc.
      Post more hands to discuss, this really helps a lot.

    • #32775

      No your thought process is a trainwreck.

      First off, I disagree with $$Troll$$ (and I’m finally convinced that Troll isn’t Sushi). Raising pre is totally fine with this kind of dynamic in these tournaments. The stacks aren’t conducive to it at all, but the way these tournaments play, this kind of min-raise will work often enough to be good. I am glad you are un-nitting.

      The big issue here is the way you are constructing a range: First of all, this is the turn!! You can’t give him a range as if this is pre-flop…the range you provided is garbage, because it contains hands he would never ever play this way—do you think he can have 78dd here?? What about AA? They are both part of the range you wrote… This is a fundamentally silly way of constructing a range post-flop. First of all, big pairs are never a part of this kind of villains range once he flats, so writing 22+, as part of his range here is totally wrong. The right way to do this is first analyze his range for flatting pre and then start cutting hands from that based on post flop action.

      Raising for info is stupid. Full stop. He can continue to bluff if he is bluffing, he might fold better hands, he might shove worse, and as such you wont find out where you stand, not to mention that our goal is to make money and not to find out who had a better hand. If you get raised and call you are losing the pot way too often, so that’s pretty bad. Are you calling a shove here? His 4-bet on the turn doesn’t have to be small just because you want it to be.

      Correct action flat and re-evaluate/win a big pot if you hit a Queen, a 3 or a flush.

    • #32778

      @spree – I just dont like the hand he has done it with. even 45s is better than Q3s. Also its ok to minraise Q3s if you have the ability to play post flop well and have ability to read opponents ranges, personally a skill I am still working on and developing, therefore I like to not get into situations with such hands that do not flop so well, often enough to make them unprofitable.

    • #32779

      You won’t figure out how to play those situations by not getting into them. Given how tight/scared people play, raising here is fine. And yes, I know, 45s is better. I would raise that too. But this situation is good, which is far more important than the difference between Q3ss and 45ss (using a chart is silly, because often you will get a hand that is in your chart, but the situation won’t be so good, whereas others you will have a good situation and a hand just outside your chart etc) This is why we understand and use our brains instead of charts.

    • #32780

      I get what you mean, that, When we minraise from MP, we are projecting a specific range to our opponents, so it does not really matter whether we have Q3 or 45, cause basically we want to disguise our hand as compared to or perceived range. But then by your rationale , what stops you from raising ATC ?? Also your play seems high variance, which most players want to avoid.

      Edit :Also what exactly do you mean that this is a good situation, what are the factors in this spot, that makes it ok to raise Q3s ??

    • #32782

      Nothing stops me from raising ATC, and very often I do. The factor that makes this good is that this deep, tight players respond to a raise mostly by a) folding and b) flat-calling and hoping to hit a flop.

      In both those circumstances I win a lot of chips irrespective of what my hand is, and therefore the situation is good.

      Also, I want to maximize EV, not avoid variance. Half my edge comes from scared people who are trying to avoid variance. Apart from which where is the huge variance? I am risking 2 BBs. And at max 4.5 or so, if my C-bet fails after getting called….its not like I am putting my whole stack in unless I flopped huge….

    • #32785

      The factor that makes this good is that this deep, tight players respond to a raise mostly by a) folding and b) flat-calling and hoping to hit a flop.

      And with what sort of stack sizes are you going to start nitting it up ?

      Edit : sounds good , might try to incorporate it in my game and see what happens, when I end up going deep..

    • #32787

      Nitting up isn’t directly connected to stack size at all. Against these players, no stack size would make me nit in these tournaments.

    • #32788

      So even if you have 20BB stack you are raising Q3 from MP ?? thats crazy.

      since you are raising so many hands, people will start 3betting you wider, and you wont be able to do anything , if you play hands like Q3s, and have a 20BB stack . I mean if you are not nitting up ever, you are doing something wrong. Just because its $2 MTT does not give me reason to not NIT it out. I think thats probably the worst response I have seen from you.

    • #32789
      shashank.s
      Member

      @spree – The range I had mentioned was the one assigned pre-flop OBVIOUSLY n after cutting his hands down, there has be quite a few draws in his range, some medium pairs, which i could get him to lay down(and the sets). The reason i 3-bet on the turn was also cuz what types of hands could he have that he donk bets the flop with & then also connects the turn with (OR) is not concerned that i may have connected with (there are definitely some J’s in my range) & also his flop bet could only be because the flop was low n there is a high possibility I missed it completely (thoughts on this).

      Also his bet sizing is something i noticed at the time, he bets less than half the pot on the flop n less than 1/3 on the turn.

      As for if he 4-bet shoves, I snap fold.

      @$$Troll$$ – I definitely agree with you about Q4 not being the best of hands to do this with. But the fact that this is a $2.2+R n that a high % of the field is just trying to cash as high as possible (40th odd place gets paid $50 odd i I think, which is big money for most playing these). Its so exploitable, that your cards don’t even matter, this added with the odds I am getting, its def +ev.
      I am more than happy to fold, if i face any sort of heat.

    • #32772

      Ok I don’t need to take insults from some random troll who for all I know has never played anything.

      First off all, I wouldn’t raise against the kind of people who would 3-bet me even remotely wide. It seems to escape you that different people do different things and I play differently against them all.

      Secondly, not raising Q3 hardly constitutes “nitting it up”. Against these guys I would never play nitty, though there may be some stack sizes where I won’t raise 100% of my range (20 BB being one of them). If you can’t understand that there is a very wide range of styles between raising 100% and being nitty, you know nothing about poker.

      Thirdly, you don’t seem to be reading…its not about the buy-in level, its about whether the people behind you are very tight or not. Usually people at this level play pretty scared at this stage, so raising Q3s with his stack is fine.

    • #32790

      Shashank, you still seem confused. First of all your range preflop is wrong. Because you have included hands like AA which he wont flat call with. Read that range again. Also, on the turn, don’t provide a preflop range! Provide the turn range.

      His lead/lead line is weird, but you have no idea what he has. You are just saying that you have basically no clue what he has so you are raising. This doesn’t make sense. It’s fair enough, I am not particularly sure what he has either. But raising such a suspicious amount won’t do much if he is bluffing/ has a draw. In fact he will very likely shove and force you to give up. Just flat here, because you have a draw now, and your 3 gives you the best hand sometimes. You have to stop this raise for information thing.

    • #32792

      Not insulting you in any way buddy. why are you sensitive? Also I have never trolled in the strat section . so calling me a troll here , is sort of insulting and personal to me.And assuming that I havent played anything ?? where did you get that ?? Is it just to belittle me and make me feel lesser , without having a proper knowledge?? So even I am going to give you a piece of my mind – I have seen you do this quite a bit . you like to say harsh things to other people and when people remotely disagree with you, you just boil up in rage and have to say something insulting back . Do you realize how your second last post , did not have any reasons to the points you were trying to make. Is that how you even discuss strategy ?? And all I said was that was the worst advice I had seen from you, for which you had to berate me..

      Gl with life buddy, thats where you need it, cause you have enough luck in poker to keep biking MTTs..

    • #32794

      Pretty sure my last response to you definitely explained why I play the way I do. (In fact, the small opening paragraph, was the only non-strategic remark at all) If anything, this and your last one were the only posts lacking in strategic content.

      I didn’t say you haven’t played anything. I said that “for all I know” you haven’t played anything. Since you conceal your identity, its a fair enough and true comment to say that for all I know you don’t play actively. Also, you are the one who started commenting on the quality of my advice and play branding it “crazy” and the “worst”, based on incomprehension since you didn’t even understand that I wasn’t raising Q3 with 20 big blinds (because you thought “not being nitty” implied raising Q3 with 20BB).

      I haven’t “boiled up in rage” anywhere here, but I don’t appreciate people randomly hating on advice without any reasoning. I stand by my comment that every single post uptil this one has had meaningful strategic content. I am harsh when I advice people (I can only assume you frequent other forums too), but you should be aware the vast majority of people I am harsh to appreciate it. I don’t insult people, I do insult the quality of their decisions often, but it is only to help them and lots of people appreciate my help a lot.

      If you think all my success is because of luck, that’s great for you. I am sure you will continue to believe that no matter how many times I bink :P.

    • #32795

      IMO.. I am fine with raise on the turn.. Shashank is doing for the wrong reasons.. i.e. “for information” .. one thing I have learnt recently is to never bet for information.. Prabhat.. we are making villain folding hands like 45, 66, 77, A2, A3 etc.. which have marginal equity (but beat us) and are trying to get to cheap showdowns (weak turn bet.. scared of bloating the pot).. if he flats my raise on the turn.. we can bomb huge on the river regardless we hit or not.. Is this okay or very spewy?

    • #32802

      @spree – I did not mean to insult you either. Just that when someone rates your decision in a harsh manner, you too get agitated. That’s all.So dont take it personally .
      Anyway pretty sure we both are here to learn, so peace. 🙂

    • #32803

      ahh fold pre couple of shortstacks after you, as played just call turn.

    • #32809
      sunny sen
      Member

      IMO.. I am fine with raise on the turn.. Shashank is doing for the wrong reasons.. i.e. “for information” .. one thing I have learnt recently is to never bet for information.. Prabhat.. we are making villain folding hands like 45, 66, 77, A2, A3 etc.. which have marginal equity (but beat us) and are trying to get to cheap showdowns (weak turn bet.. scared of bloating the pot).. if he flats my raise on the turn.. we can bomb huge on the river regardless we hit or not.. Is this okay or very spewy?

      in tourneys only or to other formats as well?

    • #25452

      tournaments essentially (with limited stacks) but I am sure it applies to cash games as well.. this is actually I think an incorrect way of saying “raising for information”.. I mean .. when one bets/raises, one is either doing it as a bluff/semi-bluff/value.. but when one says it is for information, the thought process is flawed.. I am no pundit but.. IMO.. one should get information from the betting action .. but not bet for information..

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