Low stakes MTTs, volume, ROI – doomed ? or is there light at the end of the tunnel ?

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    • #24539
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      I had an earlier post in which we discussed about the volume required in small stakes cash games at any bb/100.

      I have stopped playing ring games altogether and concentrating purely on sngs (18player, omaha hi/lo) and odd low stake 2$ – 5$ MTTs put in.

      there is this link i wanted to share with u guys, but got lazy.

      http://www.nsdpoker.com/2011/01/mtt-pros/

      abstract “A 20% ROI player will be a loser over a 3,000 tourney sample almost 26% of the time.” the subject taken into consideration plays avg buyin of 110$.

      lets say majority of us (intervntion, b0mber, respect the rest too but donno ur names/ids etc excluded) play low stakes MTTs.

      please check the roi of such a player

      http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/NagNog/poker/results/6242A9BD704A4772B678F99011695D94.html?t=2

      or player id nagnog. for an example

      my question is: are we all heading towards this ?
      [x] playing 1000s of low stakes MTTs
      [x] more than 20% in ITM
      [x] roi at 20-25% (variance kicked in, downswings etc etc) – profitability – respectable yet close to nothing as with 2000$ how many shots can one take at the 55$-215$ buyin super tournies.

      money makes money – winning satellites and their big buyin tournies – winning 2-3 small stakes huge donk field MTTs, is there anything else one can do?

      PS:

      from the former link:
      “I tell a lot of people not to play large-field online MTTs for a living. IÂ’ve always thought that the variance is just way too high for most professionals to trust their livelihood (and sanity) to large-field MTTs instead of cash, smaller-field MTTs, or STTs.”

    • #30982
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      Views are right and I agree with you. Its actually a catch 22 situation.

      MTT`s are higher variance and volume is key but how to balance Bank roll with volume as the variance during downswing can wipe it clean. Micro stakes MTT`s are donk fests and playing them profitably well needs a good amount of luck.

    • #30987
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      true bro.

      is there any logic involved in late stages, basically push push and hope ur Ax holds against kq, kj type of hands and based on ur chip count be courageous enough to push with any2 i guess before we go out like broomcorn’s uncle.

    • #30989
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      Yes, shoving strategy is a key in end game situations in my opinion. Need to keep some variables in mind here like stack sizes of players to act behind you especially the short stacks and also the prize jumps. ICM pricing is the key.

      Well everyone needs to win more then a few coin flips to take down decent size tournies but try and play as optimally as possible and learn from your mistakes or misreads. Just my 2 cents 😛

    • #30990
      Aditya Sushant
      Participant

      My gosh when did u become so knowledgeable rajat?? :p

    • #30991
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      Hehe a little bit of this is thanks to you too 😛

    • #31107
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      The volumes game – Middle/high stake – is it soul crushing?.

      I’m not under the impression that cup is half empty, what I want to do is a reality check with fellow mates.

      I personally believe there are only 5% of winning online tourney players and outta those, players with:
      ROI > 25%
      Profit > 250,000$
      Games played : 5K-10K
      are by far and few – i would say 1% (exaggerated) .

      Now,
      Take a look at these players:
      http://officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/d0r1t0s/poker/results/B43703703AD941FC88A459629546794E.html?t=2
      http://officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/aniceboy/poker/results/DD54B5EE70AE4A15B0EEC1FA7DD67E70.html?t=2

      Let’s say 100K is a good amount, but we are not set for life with it. So,
      >> Isn’t is soul crushing to play best poker for years but only to realise we are only at best a 15-20% ROI player?. And a dream to play poker tournies/tour all over the world isn’t materializing that well?
      >> 52 Sunday millions a year, unless and until we final table and finish in first 3 in atleast one of them in say 2 years time where are we heading at?
      >> it’s either do consistently well in tournies, negating variance with frequent wins, or achieve supernova elite status and enjoy all the rewards that comes exclusively with it or sign as a poker pro?.
      >>for player’s who consider poker as a supplementary income 50K in 2 years time is more than they could wish for and can quit playing if they wish to but for a pro player – is it worth the beating and abuse taken all that time, hours n hours infront of pc, decisions, calculations, variance, bad run, as good as a dead goose or is it living a life?

    • #31115
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      HMM…. this seems like a tilt post…are you running bad?

    • #31117
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      no buddy, not tilting at all. it’s just a realisation. I feel its always better to write down to stream line the thoughts in ur mind and since i don’t blog I posted under a thread.

      For a starter in poker he doesn’t know what bb/100 is, let alone what a sustainable one is. lets say he won 10$ playing 100 hands of 25NL, he feels wow I wish I learnt poker much much earlier this is easy money, he is ignorant about winrates, then slowly slowly he starts to learn abt all those things and how volume is important.
      just like that…..
      see the avg buyin, no. of games played and ROI of those 2 players mentioned above.
      the volume is just amazing and for anyone who takes poker as a serious business, it’s a realisation that poker is no walk in the park, it’s hard work, it’s putting your time in, it’s grinding for hours, it’s making the best possible decision every single time. OK all said and done, however passionate one is, it aint like cricket,badminton or any other sport in which u can feel, experience the fruit of labor with the hard work put in since poker has a luck part embedded with it.

      like i read in a blog our mind shud be disconnected from money aspect of it and grind away….

      it’s either that or this – http://officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/DaGoddfather/poker/results/452E2FA92E6F43C4A496D868DC16B282.html?t=2
      182 games and already …. yea im green with jealousy :p

    • #31118
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      For making a living playing online players will have to learn to Multi-Table to negate variance. Even playing optimally on 1-2 tables at mid-stakes is not sustainable by itself – This I do not know from experience as I am just a recreational player with bel. avg stats but from a circle of friends who play professionally.

      Its the beginners who overestimate their knowledge and spew which attracts so many players to turn pro. Well as for the hard work part, well pretty sure most here agree with u. For those who think it`s easy money well ask anyone worth asking and they will confirm “IT AIN`T”!

    • #31119
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      I did a rough estimate, assuming 20% ROI is whats sustainable, a pro needs to play close to 500$ buyin worth tournies every day to pull in a salary which can be considered as decent, say 3000$ a month, to the dedication and hours put in.
      O man low stakes is so doomed !!

    • #31120
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well use low stakes to build a bankroll and take shots at the higher stakes. Proper bankroll management is of paramount importance though!

    • #31122
      Aditya Sushant
      Participant

      Nobody climbs to the top in a day…not Phil Ivey, not any top CEO of any company. Success takes effort and dedication. It doesn”t just get handed to you. Almost every successful player started his journey at the low stakes. Keep that in mind and let it inspire and motivate you. Everything takes time. Patience is key.

      Oh and remember, the higher you go, so does the variance. Nothing comes easy 😀

    • #31133
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Never lose hope, http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/jclever16/poker/results/67C0FE8609D24A9CBCA8D694288DAB77.html?t=2
      Check dis guy out, played poker for 2 days i think and his first cash was winning the sunday million..

    • #31134
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Wow!

    • #31135
      Anonymous
      Guest

      yeah, sometimes u jus need to be in the right seat at the right time i guess 😛

    • #31136
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      ROI is only 31068% poor guy.

      thts what slammyjammy, there are people out there who have luckboxed tournies very early in their profile and dont have to worry about diminishing BR every week, im not saying they are brain dead zombies, but atleast a few gotta be idiots.

      such a heartbreaker for any tourney-volume-doer and the qn starts why it aint me??

    • #31138
      Rajat Agarwal
      Keymaster

      Hehe…When will I get my ONE TIME.

      But seriously do you guys think this guy was playing for a few days only? Either he is the luckiest **** out there or we are missing something here.

    • #31139
      terence yeh
      Member

      yeah rajat, well atleast on stars.. or else his account would have been tracked on opr.. soojy i know what u mean, the biggest mistake i made was when i won a 10k guarentee online i withdrew everythin n i splurged.. was just my second month on stars and i didnt even know about the sunday million 😛 i mean looking back i have really regretted that ad contemplating i should have used that lift in my bankroll to play tornies with higher buy ins n lesser ppl. i think the biggest mistake ppl make is withdrawing a large amount after boinking a torny or getting a big score cause you dont realise you have got to start maintaining ur new roll post withdrawal.. well that was sumthin naive i dide because of inexperience and it has cost me alot looking back

    • #31140
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      there are tonnes of ’em buddy

      http://www.pokerjunkie.com/poker-blog/las-vegas/is-swedetooth-the-biggest-luckbox-in-poker-history

      my humble prayer wud be:

      just hold my pairs when i push it with the 80-20 favs, 70 – 30s and 54 – 46 coin flips. just hold and let the timing me good enough to double up.
      have lost many deep runs (position <50) with high PP or AK/AQ types against low pairs, why can't i hit an ace/king/queen then . no never happens, meanwhile if i push with QQ , chipleader will call with QJ suited and hit obvious flush.

      ONE TIME !!!

    • #31141
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well I sometimes feel Stars is rigged …hehehe :p

    • #31143
      Anonymous
      Guest

      i know what u mean man, but at the same time when it’s your time to run hot on stars your unstoppable 😛

    • #31144
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      speak about commitment

      http://officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/RenRad+01/poker/results/DAC53757EC844020899CDC9B8E54F4AB.html?t=2

      check full tracking 52,363 tournies and counting…..

    • #31145
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Many such warriors out there!

    • #31146
      Anonymous
      Guest

      wow a frigging zombie.. look at that volume 😛

    • #31181
      Sujith Raj
      Member

      terrible __ing bad beats in ___ing stars all tourney long. winning satellites to wcoop tournies , yet nothing going well when it really matters

      recent update: won a 55$ satellite to a 215$ satellite won that too to a 530 fl omaha hi/lo , i mean if i am ___ing good enough to ___ing get thru these satellites, i should have atleast a basic understanding of the game. yet when it comes to real thing, freaking river all day long, impossible-oh wait, 1 outer is as good as 54 outs in stars, including the jokers, its mandatory,obligatory and it will come.

      hey check this out – 9 players in plo , rt ? so 9*4 = 36 cards , outta 16 cards remaining 5 cards shud be so arranged so as to favour chipleader outta players in pot every time, and others see enough outs to stay in the pot, bet-raise-reraise, oh man the card detection at ___ing stars is just awesome, possibly some indian IT guy like me coded. freaking ass.

    • #24540
      sunny sen
      Member

      terrible __ing bad beats in ___ing stars all tourney long. winning satellites to wcoop tournies , yet nothing going well when it really matters

      recent update: won a 55$ satellite to a 215$ satellite won that too to a 530 fl omaha hi/lo , i mean if i am ___ing good enough to ___ing get thru these satellites, i should have atleast a basic understanding of the game. yet when it comes to real thing, freaking river all day long, impossible-oh wait, 1 outer is as good as 54 outs in stars, including the jokers, its mandatory,obligatory and it will come.

      hey check this out – 9 players in plo , rt ? so 9*4 = 36 cards , outta 16 cards remaining 5 cards shud be so arranged so as to favour chipleader outta players in pot every time, and others see enough outs to stay in the pot, bet-raise-reraise, oh man the card detection at ___ing stars is just awesome, possibly some indian IT guy like me coded. freaking ass.

      ___ing yea

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