August 6, 2012 at 7:20 am #25654Prabhat MukherjeaMember
In this hand, the villain is a russian maniac who is playing super loose aggressive and seems rather spewy. He is running 40/25 with 14% 3-bet.
I’d especially appreciate thoughts on how to respond to his 3-bet, open to arguments for any of the three options.
I think my c-bet on this flop is definitely a mistake which I realized after his shove.
Do we call or fold now?
PokerStars Hand #84341790282: Tournament #610010447, $100+$9 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level XXXIX (9000/18000) – 2012/08/06 7:02:31 IST [2012/08/05 21:32:31 ET]
Table ‘610010447 205’ 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: TY3OB_KAPMAH (901783 in chips)
Seat 2: d1rdyharry (713266 in chips)
Seat 3: youaremelon (355539 in chips)
Seat 4: donkno2 (1370969 in chips)
Seat 5: VegasDietz (446565 in chips)
Seat 6: Zuckerz (761835 in chips)
Seat 7: Zapalka69 (128148 in chips)
Seat 8: SuicideSpree (983411 in chips)
TY3OB_KAPMAH: posts the ante 2250
d1rdyharry: posts the ante 2250
youaremelon: posts the ante 2250
donkno2: posts the ante 2250
VegasDietz: posts the ante 2250
Zuckerz: posts the ante 2250
Zapalka69: posts the ante 2250
SuicideSpree: posts the ante 2250
donkno2: posts small blind 9000
VegasDietz: posts big blind 18000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SuicideSpree [Kh Jc]
SuicideSpree: raises 18495 to 36495
TY3OB_KAPMAH: raises 36495 to 72990
SuicideSpree: raises 71960 to 144950
TY3OB_KAPMAH: calls 71960
*** FLOP *** [Th Qh 8s]
SuicideSpree: bets 165999
TY3OB_KAPMAH: raises 588584 to 754583 and is all-in
August 6, 2012 at 7:23 am #33401sunny senMember
raw hhs are a massive pain to read imo
August 6, 2012 at 7:39 am #33402Subhojit ChakrabortyMember
imo you should have called his bet 72990 instead of raising….and in flop you should have checked….at you current situation you should fold…plese post the result…..imo he he probably has kq
August 6, 2012 at 9:02 am #33403$$TtotheMFingROLL$$Member
14% 3bet is a lot, how many hands did you have on him at the time ?? Pre I think is perfectly fine, post I would have cbet too. Why do you think its a mistake ?? and Even though his stats are so LAGy I think this hand he pretty much has KQ+, and calling his shove or not, is just dependant on how much gamble you have in you ,but I might juust give up the hand this deep, considering he may have blockers to our outs and the K overcard might also not be good.
August 6, 2012 at 10:48 am #33407Jagdeep SinghMember
2 Qs prabhat.
1. What are ur stats? (to understand your perceived image)
2. Why did u chose to 4-bet there? Also, dont you think that 4-bet to 8BB is too less… u r OOP, should have bet to 12 BB instead to get some fold equity. (Villian needs to call 4BB in a pot 14.5BB. I think he will call a lot of hands. Right?)
August 9, 2012 at 11:40 am #33437Vinay SuchedeMember
(+1 to rentdollarinplay, I tried to convert and post it but gave error on deucescracked.. so had to do it all on paper)
Don’t think we can call here. We have to have at least 38% equity to be slightly +EV on the call. If we stove it, dont think we will get to 38%.
1. can we make our 4-bets a lil bigger? .. I mean he is 40/25.. his vpip suggests he does not give up .. he will be flatting those min 4bets (which defeats the purpose of our light 4bet i.e. to get him to fold)
2. also 50bb eff .. we can flat a lot of his 3bets.. and check shove on boards that we even slightly connect..
do let me know your thoughts as well..
August 10, 2012 at 9:41 am #33443Arjun ParmarMember
i would have folded KJo hand pre in UTG+2. but since you have played flatting his 3-bet would have been a better option imo
August 10, 2012 at 2:08 pm #33444Vinod KKMember
As far as the hand advice goes, As played I do not seem to have much suggestions that i can give. Even with a slightly bigger 4-bet size you might have ended up in a similar result. Also whether to c-bet or not is debatable. But you have to fold here once he goes all in. THere is nothing there that justifies a call. Having said that this is how i would have approached the game.
especially in this situation where there is loose aggressive player behind you, you need to start playing tight. Couple of reasons why I would change gears and start playing tight
1. Against loose aggressive players who has position on you more often than not you need to have a hand or gamble with mediocre hands.(which i dont recommend)
2. Also this hand KJo if i played i would have folded and respected his 3-bet to set him up for future 4-bet or c-bet that he will respect. This can only happen if you reestablish your tight table image.
3. You have very good chip stack you can afford to play tight
4. The way he is playing either he is going to take some other guys out or he is going to be stacked. I think you are well setup to go into the final table with that chip stack and in the process you will have a tight image going into the final table where you can again change gears and start being aggressive. You should just leave it to others to fight this one out at this stage and wait for a good hand.
August 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm #33446Prabhat MukherjeaMember
Vinay, I didn’t 4-bet larger because in general 4-bets needn’t be as large as 3-bets. He was aggro, but I did think flat/fold flop was going to be his line if he didn’t have a monster.
I think c/shove was actually optimal even with these stack sizes. On the contrary, I don’t think if i just flatted, it would be +EV to check/shove a standard 3-bet pot with weak top pair/midpair+draw/openender type hands when I’ve started with 80 BB at this stage.
Vinod, if I fold this and then 4-bet light in the future, he is just as liable to think I have grown tired of his bullying etc. In terms of this allowing me to 4-bet light later, I am skeptical.
2. With regard to your general suggestion, I feel that I basically have to fold everything unless I start fighting back at some point, because there is no other way of dealing with a lunatic. If i don’t get big hands, when/if I do make the FT, I will have a small or below average stack, at which point I won’t be able to change gears no matter what my image is.
3. This is a $109 tourney on Stars with a mix of good aggro players/ hyper-lag lunatics and uber-nits blinding down to 3/4 BBs trying to hit cash jumps. I feel that the general strategy of “waiting for a good hand” is the worst possible option I could adopt here because on the one hand FT won’t come anytime soon thanks to these retards blinding down desperately. On the other hand the correct way to exploit them is by raising a lot and stealing blinds (this is what the aggros and the lunatics are doing). If I start doing this I will blind down, and there’s no telling how low I could get following this strategy.
I am interested to hear what you think about this though, I might be wrong here.
August 10, 2012 at 7:19 pm #33447Vinod KKMember
This is something i like to do when playing big tournaments(deep structure). I try and think what my strategy is going to be say for the next few levels or few rounds…whether i am going to be aggressive, passive and what hands i am going to play etc depending on my stacks/blinds/table dynamics etc. So based on that i gave my input and it is somethign to think about apart from the hand itself.
Your curremt m-ratio is 21 or so. What i was suggesting is to will slow down and play only good hands for the next say 3-4 rounds in this scenario(you can stack the aggro player easily if you do get a good hand). There are few people on this table with less than 10 blinds. I would like someone else to do the dirty job with this aggro player. Also in the mean time i am resetting my table image to tight. But to your point after 4 rounds i might play the KJ exactly the same way you played and might end up with similar results. For me in these 4 rounds that aggro player is going to take a hit or knock someone else out. If that does not happen i will have to again step up the gear.
I would have slowed down and folded KJo in the current scenario adn let things play out a little bit more.
As far as the hand itself there are very few faults and every action is debateable one way or the other. But my personnel opinion the way the hand played out i think the aggro player actually hit the flop. Also based on that i am not sure if he folds any hands to your check shove on the flop. he can only fold 2nd pair and i dont think he is folding top pair here.
But where i wanted to take the discussion was in terms of tourney strategy in this scenario rather then the hand itself. Also like someone else pointed out its good to check what your stats are to check if he was exploiting anythign there. Other than that there is not much you can do with the hand itself. i thought you played the KJo well and on a differnt day it might have worked.
August 16, 2012 at 3:31 pm #25655ArturoMember
Thank you for your thoughts KK nice theory for t strategy.
FOLD is my option, now, i would play it like ck-call and re-evaluate on turn, now his range is very narrow, either he has 88,TT, nult flush draw. can’t see he is bluffing for his t-life.
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