Was it a good call?

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    • #23925

      Hi guys,

      I played in the IPC that concluded and I am still thinking of a call I made…

      I was in like 24th or some position with like 20k chip stack. The blinds were 800/1600. I raised to 6000 with Pocket Jacks, and the other guy went all-in (around 25-30k chips).. I thought for a moment, but called eventually figuring he might have AK or AQ or lesser pockets. I was right in that regard, and he indeed had AQ suited. What happened next was: flop comes- 5 4 5, turn – 3, river- 2. He makes a straight.

      Should I have called his All-in with JJ at this stage of the tourney? Or shud I have mucked the cards when he went all-in?

    • #29467

      gTm i dont like your raise size to begin with, with 20k, u are investing more than 25% of your stack pre flop. A small raise size is much better at this stage, since stacks are so shallow. By raising so big you are almost committing yourself as you have way too much invested pre flop. On 12bbs its not generally a good idea to raise and then fold to a re-raise, hence I just raise with most hands I am going to go all the way with on such short stacks. JJ is def a premium hand and with such shallow stacks your instinct is obviously right that he cud be going all in with weaker pockets and some big Aces. You have to imagine yourself in his shoes and think what hands you would go allin with, if you were in that situation, this way you can put him on some range of hands. If you think he can have lesser pockets and big Aces you have to call, your stack just way too short to raise fold and you could be ahead a lot of the time, its an easy call.
      gTm is very important not to be result oriented in poker, you have to make the best decision for the long run and as long you do that you will be a winning player over a good sample size.

    • #29475
      Denny
      Member

      I made a very similar play with AA in the BB The blinds were 800/1600. I had two callers and the SB folded (slightly misreported on PGuru) there was 5,600 in the pot I raised another 5,200 (had a 32k stack or thereabouts) the 1st limper pushed allin (around 18k – 20k total) other guy folds. I insta-called and flipped over my AA .. he had the KJ suited (ironic as it a hand I have made several comments about on this forum)

      What happened next was my As Ad v Kh Jh

      The board runs Kd 3h 8c Th Jd and my aces are cracked.

      This was the pivotal difference between cruising to the final table and making a cash or struggling to continue with approx 6 x BB.

      There will always be a tough decision and it’s easy to comment after. I don’t disagree with your play as personally I would prefer to raise and take down the blinds uncontested (I’m only guessing that is what you intended with JJ .. it’s my preferred option and to re-evaluate if I get more than one reraise)

      I have no information about positions or how the table dynamics are .. it is possible to limp if you are certain a raise would come (doubt there would be many light calls at this blind level a crucial factor) and it aslo disguises the strength of your hand giving you the option to flat call a re-raise or come over the top.

      If you elect to call it then gives you the option of then shoving on a low flop if you put them on a hand like AK AQ.

      However only you know if any of the above would be a viable alternative (very easy for me to suggest when seeing the hand) for you in that “particular” spot/table.

      In general .. just a tough spot for JJ in my opinion.

      Hope this is of some use and it was nice to meet you in person at the IPC

    • #29513

      with just 12 big blinds it was an obvious call
      could not have folded JJ
      and as someone correctly pointed out the raise was very high….a raise to 4500 is good enough
      eventually the all in was a call
      you were ahead till turn……he just got lucky

    • #29543
      Hot.Cocoa
      Member

      Your question although valid, is fundamentally flawed.

      Folding should never enter your thought process in this context.

      You should be asking if this was the best way to get all your chips in the middle.

    • #29547
      Denny
      Member

      Your question although valid, is fundamentally flawed.
      Folding should never enter your thought process in this context.

      I disagree.

      I would happily defend either choice here FOLD or CALL and I believe from a tournament/stategy point his question is not flawed since even in the context of this hand it involves his tournament life.

      He cannot reload and carry on (as in a cash game), thus any profitability is on the the line as his tournament life hangs on this one decision. If he had a much larger stack and covered the other guy then this simplifies and changes the factors in the decision making process. If he had already secured a money place finish this also alters his decision process.

      I totally agree that the play (isloated with the context of the hand alone) is correct and the chips went into the middle as a favourite preflop .. and yes in my opinion I would not consider folding; however it is not the optimal play to risk your tourney in a preflop race. If he had folded, it would have proved to have been the correct decision (even if it is not one I would consider) as he would still be in and could easily double/treble up in the next few hands.

      His only decision was (since his read is correct) do I want to race JJ v AK AQ or should I fold and wait for a better spot?; and that question is certainly not flawed.

      On the subject of the raise I also disagree since I personally like his preflop raise since as it a) gives him the option of taking it down preflop b) get more money in the pot if they decide to call c) gives him more information if he is reraised with his knowledge of how people are playing at the table.

    • #29560
      ashutoshnaik
      Participant

      Two jacks can be a very dangerous hand, easily dominated. Just watch the 2010 WSOP main event final table videos on youtube and you will know. Cheers 🙂

    • #29633
      saby
      Member

      How many places were paid here.

      Just a thought on the hand.

      You could have shoved to begin with reducing the calling range of your opponents to QQ+ (this would have ensured that the guy who called was in (-)Ev).

      Since your raise is 6000 even if there is a call your chips will go in the middle on the flop (6000 + call + ante and ur stack is 14K). Hence go all in first and reduce the calling ranges.

      Or
      As Adi already mentioned raise small and give yourself folding equity.

    • #29634
      Anuj Arora
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

    • #29636
      Simon Mint
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      What if you are the small blind with 6000 chips, blinds are 250/500 and everyone has folded to the button. The button shoved allin with 2000 chips would you call?

    • #29637
      Denny
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      What if you are the small blind with 6000 chips, blinds are 250/500 and everyone has folded to the button. The button shoved allin with 2000 chips would you call?

      YES OF COURSE

    • #29643
      Anuj Arora
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      What if you are the small blind with 6000 chips, blinds are 250/500 and everyone has folded to the button. The button shoved allin with 2000 chips would you call?

      well,calling 2000 chips with 6000 in hand would have been a better call but certainly not all in with 20k.. in the case u said i would have taken a chance.. but chances taken is called gambling and not poker….. I hope everyone here are poker PLAYERS and not GAMBLERS..

      May the flop bless your cards

    • #29645
      Denny
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      His raise may have been on the excessive side and a raise to 4k (about 2.5 x BB) would have been enough, but limping is wrong on so many levels;

      1. The BB is never folding so he has a free flop to hit and destroy your jacks .. 9 4 .. flop is 7 4 9 .. your jacks look great on that flop, trust me it happens.

      2. If everybody limps behind you: you gain no information on their hand strength, plus see 1. above you allow the BB to see the flop for free with any two.

      3. If they raise you ; are they stealing the blinds? and or do they have a hand? ; what are you going to do fold to a raise? if you call you still have no information on the strength of their hand and you are left with the option of re-raising to see where you are. You are effectively giving them “pot control” (I assume if you limp, you are calling a raise)

      Sorry but you advice IMHO is totally wrong .. you gain nothing by limping.

      You need a plan to play the hand and limping is NO PLAN at all !!

    • #29646
      Anuj Arora
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      (You need a plan to play the hand) and limping is NO PLAN at all !!

      very well said that you need a plan to play a hand even his raise was a Plan indeed but what happend to the plan.. got thrashed??? when you are playing at the stage where he was in a tourney after all the grind througout need to play a lil safer..
      raise to 4k (about 2.5 x BB) would have been a good option but he had some different PLANS for the hand…

    • #29647
      Denny
      Member

      Raising Preflop was itself not a good idea, should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand without any tilt.. and specially a pair is very tricky to play… well i would never go all in with a pair of JJ especially preflop… NEVER…

      May the flop bless your cards

      (You need a plan to play the hand) and limping is NO PLAN at all !!

      very well said that you need a plan to play a hand even his raise was a Plan indeed but what happend to the plan.. got thrashed??? when you are playing at the stage where he was in a tourney after all the grind througout need to play a lil safer..
      raise to 4k (about 2.5 x BB) would have been a good option but he had some different PLANS for the hand…

      My message related to your advice … not his bad play. Limping is terrible; no matter what stage of the tournament .. PERIOD. I would not advise to anyone that limping is a viable play for the reasons I have stated, which I note you fail to address in your communications.

    • #29648
      Denny
      Member

      should have just limped in to see the flop favoring or against you that would have helped you to play this hand

      May the flop bless your cards

      So in your plan .. what do you do when he raises to 3 x BB ??

    • #29662

      THERE ARE 3 WAYS TO PLAY JJ’S – AND ALL OF THEM ARE WRONG!!!

    • #29664
      richestuser
      Member

      JJ in early or mid position …best way to play is to Min raise BB….
      in late position go ALL IN …

      regarding ur call i would say right call….he made straight…. even before river u where favorite with like 70-30…
      just a cold deck for u..

      good luck

    • #29666
      Denny
      Member

      JJ in early or mid position …best way to play is to Min raise BB….
      in late position go ALL IN …

      regarding ur call i would say right call….he made straight…. even before river u where favorite with like 70-30…
      just a cold deck for u..

      good luck

      Thanks …. sensible advice and on the money.

    • #29681
      anks
      Member

      Jacks is a Killer hand
      if you notice maximum knockouts happen with AK vs QQ, JJ,
      or with AQ facing same hands.

    • #29835
      richestuser
      Member

      so sick >:(

    • #29881
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Your question although valid, is fundamentally flawed.
      Folding should never enter your thought process in this context.

      I disagree.

      I would happily defend either choice here FOLD or CALL and I believe from a tournament/stategy point his question is not flawed since even in the context of this hand it involves his tournament life.

      He cannot reload and carry on (as in a cash game), thus any profitability is on the the line as his tournament life hangs on this one decision. If he had a much larger stack and covered the other guy then this simplifies and changes the factors in the decision making process. If he had already secured a money place finish this also alters his decision process.

      I totally agree that the play (isloated with the context of the hand alone) is correct and the chips went into the middle as a favourite preflop .. and yes in my opinion I would not consider folding; however it is not the optimal play to risk your tourney in a preflop race. If he had folded, it would have proved to have been the correct decision (even if it is not one I would consider) as he would still be in and could easily double/treble up in the next few hands.

      His only decision was (since his read is correct) do I want to race JJ v AK AQ or should I fold and wait for a better spot?; and that question is certainly not flawed.

      On the subject of the raise I also disagree since I personally like his preflop raise since as it a) gives him the option of taking it down preflop b) get more money in the pot if they decide to call c) gives him more information if he is reraised with his knowledge of how people are playing at the table.

      1. I don’t think you should EVER be raise-folding 30% of your stack.

      2. All this “it was for his tournament life” talk should not enter the discussion at ALL. 97% decisions made at any stage in the tournament are either +CeV or -CeV, and frankly, getting it in with Jacks is generally a profitable play with a 16BB stack. Of course, if you feel Villain’s range is entirely overpairs and big aces (which would make for a monstrously tight villain), you could fold JJ if you had a little less of your stack invested. If he has a balance range of say 77+, AJs+ your hand has roughly 53.5% equity against his range, and you’re getting MORE than just good odds to call. Your decision should always depend on what Villain’s perceived range is.

      3. Another thing to consider is that since most of the money is almost always in the top 3 places, the equity you gain by winning a big flip is way, way more profitable to you over a large sample size than the equity you would have in the tournament if you folded this hand, and waited for a better spot. Not only should you have taken this flip, but you probably should have taken a lot more of them before this one. It’s almost impossible to win a tournament without winning the important flips. Of course, if you feel your table is playing really tight, and you’re able to steal a lot without having to put a big part of your stack at risk, then you might decide to fold – but that really is a utopian scenario.

      4. I personally don’t like the raise size at all – and I think your decision might’ve been simpler with a smaller raise preflop.

      -Rishabh.

    • #23926
      Denny
      Member

      Your question although valid, is fundamentally flawed.
      Folding should never enter your thought process in this context.

      I disagree.

      I would happily defend either choice here FOLD or CALL and I believe from a tournament/stategy point his question is not flawed since even in the context of this hand it involves his tournament life.

      He cannot reload and carry on (as in a cash game), thus any profitability is on the the line as his tournament life hangs on this one decision. If he had a much larger stack and covered the other guy then this simplifies and changes the factors in the decision making process. If he had already secured a money place finish this also alters his decision process.

      I totally agree that the play (isloated with the context of the hand alone) is correct and the chips went into the middle as a favourite preflop .. and yes in my opinion I would not consider folding; however it is not the optimal play to risk your tourney in a preflop race. If he had folded, it would have proved to have been the correct decision (even if it is not one I would consider) as he would still be in and could easily double/treble up in the next few hands.

      His only decision was (since his read is correct) do I want to race JJ v AK AQ or should I fold and wait for a better spot?; and that question is certainly not flawed.

      On the subject of the raise I also disagree since I personally like his preflop raise since as it a) gives him the option of taking it down preflop b) get more money in the pot if they decide to call c) gives him more information if he is reraised with his knowledge of how people are playing at the table.

      1. I don’t think you should EVER be raise-folding 30% of your stack.

      2. All this “it was for his tournament life” talk should not enter the discussion at ALL. 97% decisions made at any stage in the tournament are either +CeV or -CeV, and frankly, getting it in with Jacks is generally a profitable play with a 16BB stack. Of course, if you feel Villain’s range is entirely overpairs and big aces (which would make for a monstrously tight villain), you could fold JJ if you had a little less of your stack invested. If he has a balance range of say 77+, AJs+ your hand has roughly 53.5% equity against his range, and you’re getting MORE than just good odds to call. Your decision should always depend on what Villain’s perceived range is.

      3. Another thing to consider is that since most of the money is almost always in the top 3 places, the equity you gain by winning a big flip is way, way more profitable to you over a large sample size than the equity you would have in the tournament if you folded this hand, and waited for a better spot. Not only should you have taken this flip, but you probably should have taken a lot more of them before this one. It’s almost impossible to win a tournament without winning the important flips. Of course, if you feel your table is playing really tight, and you’re able to steal a lot without having to put a big part of your stack at risk, then you might decide to fold – but that really is a utopian scenario.

      4. I personally don’t like the raise size at all – and I think your decision might’ve been simpler with a smaller raise preflop.

      -Rishabh.

      You might want to read the entire thread and what was said

      1. He didn’t fold and as I have stated before I would not fold JJ here either no matter how it was played. I simply said I would not condemn someone for doing it.

      2. There are many plays/hands within a tournament you should definitely factor in whether your play will end your tournament life. and to say you shouldn’t is incorrect.

      You don’t explain why or give any reason as to what a min-raise will achieve .. just a “it makes it simplier” .. tell me exactly what it achieves ???

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