What do you do on the river … ???

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    • #24137
      Denny
      Member

      Full Tilt Poker Game #29598581792: Daily Dollar Rebuy (226572339), Table 832 – 80/160 – No Limit Hold’em – 16:53:33 ET – 2011/04/03
      Seat 1: JaytheHippy (6,030)
      Seat 2: pinkster14 (33,970)
      Seat 3: Vladimio1 (11,255)
      Seat 4: Raiz 7 (20,360)
      Seat 5: Kaitz20 (3,910)
      Seat 6: babygirl781 (1,015), is sitting out
      Seat 7: Chancer007 (12,534)
      Seat 8: byrd1isme (3,510)
      Seat 9: sousac (5,160)
      Vladimio1 posts the small blind of 80
      Raiz 7 posts the big blind of 160
      The button is in seat #2
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to Chancer007 [Kd 2d]
      Kaitz20 raises to 320
      babygirl781 folds
      Chancer007 calls 320
      byrd1isme has 15 seconds left to act
      byrd1isme folds
      sousac folds
      JaytheHippy folds
      pinkster14 folds
      Vladimio1 calls 240
      Raiz 7 calls 160
      *** FLOP *** [4d 8c 2s]
      Vladimio1 checks
      Raiz 7 checks
      Kaitz20 has 15 seconds left to act
      Kaitz20 checks
      Chancer007 bets 800
      Vladimio1 calls 800
      Raiz 7 calls 800
      Kaitz20 folds
      *** TURN *** [4d 8c 2s] [Ad]
      Vladimio1 checks
      Raiz 7 checks
      Chancer007 bets 2,240
      Vladimio1 calls 2,240
      Raiz 7 folds
      *** RIVER *** [4d 8c 2s Ad] [As]
      Vladimio1 checks
      Chancer007 ?????

    • #30391
      Sur Manzoor
      Member

      chk obviously .. btw..why flat with k2 preflop out of position?

    • #30392
      Jake Witcher
      Member

      given that there is no logical hand he can be holding that you are beating and that we have no knowledge of table image, past history etc etc.. you bluff and hope he passes his 86 type hand or check and hope he thinks he is a hero with KQ / QJ and thinks his high card is good.

      for the record, the only legit draw on flop hit on the turn. he can have any small PP, any weak 8 like 87, 89, 86. unless you have him thinking youre bluffing, and even then hes going to call because he thinks that.

      depending on what he thinks of you he can even have 99 in this spot and is letting you bluff you chips off into him.

      dont like this hand from the start or on any street.

      i agree with Manzoor’s comment above.

      the ONLY hand he can hold that means a bet shoudl win the river is 56 (double belly on flop) but this isnt a read you have here.

    • #30395

      given that there is no logical hand he can be holding that you are beating and that we have no knowledge of table image, past history etc etc.. you bluff and hope he passes his 86 type hand or check and hope he thinks he is a hero with KQ / QJ and thinks his high card is good.

      This is so wrong. U cant expect him to call with K/Q highs and fold a pair of 8s. If he’s calling with K/Q highs, he’s calling with a pair of 8s all day long. Once he’s called a bet on the turn when the ace hits, he’s not folding the river esp when the ace pairs.

    • #30396

      dont like this hand from the start or on any street.

      i agree with Manzoor’s comment above.

      This. Why call with K-2s when a guy in EP is raising. U hav got a stack. Conserve it and dont get into marginal spots. As played, why bet the turn. Now ur hand has improved as u’ve picked up the nut FD. Y want to risk getting blown off ur hand? Even if ur behind which u prolly are, u’ve got enough outs. And in these kind of tournies esp, most donks never fold pairs esp in such a dry spot. U cant just expect to keep firing once an ace hits hoping they’ll believe u’ve got an ace/not got an ace themselves

    • #30406
      richestuser
      Member

      i will take my shot..and bluff with a value bet on river(5 K) …. reasons—

      1) opponent is not having an Ace-no way— why would he check on river( moreover he is a fish..just check on HUD)
      2) rebuy tourney- early stages of game…even if my read that no body has got Ace…goes wrong..i can rebuy..
      3) opponent has a pair(4s or 8s or 2s)….he called from small blind…. ideally ace is a scare card for SB and BB….

      normally I will not even enter in pot with this hand….and if any reason i am entering…..i will take my shot on such small stakes..

      Good luck

    • #30410
      Sur Manzoor
      Member

      i will take my shot..and bluff with a value bet on river(5 K) …. reasons—

      1) opponent is not having an Ace-no way— why would he check on river( moreover he is a fish..just check on HUD)
      2) rebuy tourney- early stages of game…even if my read that no body has got Ace…goes wrong..i can rebuy..
      3) opponent has a pair(4s or 8s or 2s)….he called from small blind…. ideally ace is a scare card for SB and BB….

      normally I will not even enter in pot with this hand….and if any reason i am entering…..i will take my shot on such small stakes..

      Good luck

      Dont agree with the above analysis at all

      First of all with K2, it doenst matter what u choose to play , but i dont agree with how u played it preflop. I think with a hand like k2 ur not playing it for the strength of the hand obviously, ur playing ur opponents range. Hence the stronger play in position preflop to a min raise is to three bet. A three bet would have most probably not given the blinds odds to call and u can fold to a 4 bet to the initial raiser. If the initial raiser flats, a cbet by u on most raggy flops should have taken that pot down. plus u have much more information on ur opponents hands for later streets than having to guess. By pricing in the blinds, they can have any two cards making ur move that much harder to execute in a four way pot post flop.

      Now back to the above analysis for the move on the river. Too often ur opponent is going to call most of ur value bets. especially a 5k bet. If he called a 2200+ bet on the turn once the “scare card” shows , then he is way too likely to call ur river bet once the second ace shows simply cause the second ace changes nothing about almost all hands he could have other than flopped two pairs. So ur making a river bet hoping he has a hand like 4 2 , 8 2 , 2 4 , and folds a river bet cause he thinks he just got counter fitted. And im not even sure if 8 2 would fold ..

      I also dont understand why hands like A2,A4 and A8 are not possible in this spot. What about 3 5? Also if he is a “fish” , as pointed out, doesnt that make it more likely for him to call u on the river? So that means he is likely to call with any 8 and most k4, q4, maybe even j4.

      I could go on about how this line is not profitable, but bottom line, its bad play in my opinion.

      Hope this was helpful.

    • #30411
      richestuser
      Member

      Now back to the above analysis for the move on the river. Too often ur opponent is going to call most of ur value bets. especially a 5k bet. If he called a 2200+ bet on the turn once the “scare card” shows , then he is way too likely to call ur river bet once the second ace shows simply cause the second ace changes nothing about almost all hands he could have other than flopped two pairs. So ur making a river bet hoping he has a hand like 4 2 , 8 2 , 2 4 , and folds a river bet cause he thinks he just got counter fitted. And im not even sure if 8 2 would fold ..

      I also dont understand why hands like A2,A4 and A8 are not possible in this spot. What about 3 5? Also if he is a “fish” , as pointed out, doesnt that make it more likely for him to call u on the river? So that means he is likely to call with any 8 and most k4, q4, maybe even j4.

      I could go on about how this line is not profitable, but bottom line, its bad play in my opinion.

      Hope this was helpful.

      Go through hand again…opponent is check calling…..on each streak…
      Their is 99.5% possibility that he is not having an ace….. do u really think..person having a full boat will check on river .. given the data… he is a fish(weak player)???
      absolutely no possibility of 2 pair also..if he would have 2 pair…he would have bet strong on turn…. since he would have any ace beat…

      u can ask anybody …if opponent is having a full house( A2 A4 A8) or straight(3 5) and is a fish..will always lead out on river…

      entering with K2 is surely bad play…

      but checking on river with deuces… no way… hand has almost zero show value… u need to bring a story that u got an ace…

    • #30412
      Denny
      Member

      Ok .. some great advice: nearest is richest user.

      1. I agree the Kd 2d call is sloppy and gambling, but the table was pretty passive and I knew the blinds would not re-raise; I did just “want to see a flop” with this hand as the initial raiser was simply “at it” and had been constantly raising.

      2. When it was checked to me on the flop I was pretty certain nobody has an overpair to the board or A 8 .. since they would have bet to take the pot down .. hence I fired the first barrel. Nobody re-raised and it was a multiway pot .. plus the INITIAL RAISER folded.

      3. The turn I fired again since it was likely I would have an A in my holding … plus I had the NFD as backup. If Vladimio had an Ace holding here I am sure he would have re-raised to see where he was or take the pot down.

      He folded on the river so the bet sizing may well have been immaterial. It is most likley he did have a drawing hand as suggested above.

      I fired the third bullet regardless a) because he may have had a small pair b) I wasn’t 100% certain to win the pot at showdown but I felt that Vladimio did not have a hand he could comfortably call a sizeable river bet with since he did not value bet the river and simply checked (richestuser correctly said) …

      I agree that the play is sub-standard and I would usually fold Kd 2d (soooted pretty cards) but sometimes you do simply have to play your opponents cards and tendencies .. I agree that the 3 bet preflop was probabl;y a safer and better option .. but less profitable in this instance.

      OH >>> anyone got a tip for losing runs ….. My account has taken a hammering recently a) the wife played on it …. lost $400 plus b) since then I have been unable to get further than small cashes … everytime I am nearing a big payout I lose in preflop races AA v 63 or with 88 I flop 8JJ the money ends up allin on the flop (coz he has J5 the nutz obviously) only to see him spike a 5 on the turn .. and other hands that equally sick …. think I am down another $300 myself and just hovering about the $500 mark in my account … taken a couple of days off from it

    • #30428
      Sur Manzoor
      Member

      🙂 once again with all due respect, i do not agree with richest user’s analysis. Different levels of thinking i guess. People do check the nuts on the river , i know its hard to believe, but it happens.

      Bottom line, there are way too many hands in ur opponents range that will call a river bet and very very few hands that will fold to a river bet. I think Jake’s thread was poignant and more towards the point i was trying to make. (clearly i failed in gettin my point across 😛 ) . And just cause ur opponent folded this time doesn’t make it the correct play.

      Tips during a down swing

      1) downswings happen. chalk it up to variance and use the time to concentrate on ur game. Mental toughness is key in being a good player and its easy to second guess urself while going through a down swing.

      2)Also down swings are good spots for u to take a step back and analyze ur game. Plug a few holes that u have in ur game that u wouldnt have noticed during “the good times”. When i first started playing I used to go through down swings and be really hard on the game.. ” why do my aces always get cracked, or i always flop the nuts shove it in and loose a big pot to the river.” things changed when i took those opportunities to find flaws in my own game instead of blaming bad play by others. so taking a step back and learning helps.

      3) Stepping down in levels is a good way to minimize damage to ur bank roll, and also strengthening ur game during the dry spell. By stepping down and playing a level that uve already beat ur gonna regain ur confidence and maybe pick up on some strengths which will pick up ur game in the higher levels. so if ur having a tough time at the 1/2 cash games, step down to .50/1 dollar or lower.

      4) dont let the wife play on ur account ( jk)

      wish everyone a good weekend and happy check raising 🙂

    • #30431
      Denny
      Member

      🙂 once again with all due respect, i do not agree with richest user’s analysis. Different levels of thinking i guess. People do check the nuts on the river , i know its hard to believe, but it happens.

      Bottom line, there are way too many hands in ur opponents range that will call a river bet and very very few hands that will fold to a river bet.

      No disrespect here either … a) I have already admitted the preflop play is not something I would advocate and I have held my hand up but I think you’re analysis of his calls on the flop and turn are heavily biased to he must have “something” and “it is within his range” … What you are not including is that was in the sb and has called the extra 240 because the pot is already 860 and likely to be 1280 when he and the BB complete. (therefore he could be calling with any random hand even 87 suited in the hope of catching a flop)

      If you take that into consideration with his check/call on the flop and the turn I am sure if he had the ace or a semi decent hand he would be reraising to see the strength of my hand otherwise he has no information … therefore I am convinced he will not call a river bet given that I have shown strength preflop/flop/turn/and the river .. If he does have a pair like 99 10 10 he is not calling a sizeable river bet … If he does have such a hand then checking behind on the river is simply handing him the pot …. I suppose it boils down to how you interpret his actions, but as easily as the nuts are within someone’s range there are also calling stations who will hope to hit regardless of the cost/pot odds.

      P.S I don’t play cash … and she is so mortified that she wouldn’t go near my account again 🙂

      Tip 1 and 2 … great tips and something I do already … I already know I seldom follow my own advice/RULES and I called an UTG raise out of position UTG +2 when the blinds were only 200/400 and the raise was to 2,500 … I had A 10 suited only for a medium stack on the BTN to shove for 7,500 and the intial raiser to move allin making in another 16,800 to go … he had 99 …. I snapped called (without stopping to think about my position in the tourney … 10th at that point and my stack size etc ..) and obviously lost … BUT I KNOW MY PLAY was HORRIBLE the minute I called the early position raise with about 5 others to act behind … In my defence, which is feeble and laughable, in fact I have none, is that I had been folding shit for a few rounds as I had a large stack and A 10 suited is a very prreeeetttty hand …. but a hand given the situation I should have folded immediately since it was likely to get me into trouble … and it did as I failed to cash and it was only 11 more to go to a cash place 1 -20th paid .. I was left with with around 8,000 chips but I went on TILT ….

      If I had stuck to self imposed rules … it would never have happened … but I have nobody to blame but myself …. NO POINT IN POSTING IT FOR ADVICE 🙂

    • #24138
      richestuser
      Member

      @ supermanzoor….
      may be i am wrong… i have analyzed my over 100K hands played online during last 2 yrs.. and found that few times i play my hand too aggressively……may be the same case here…

      anyways good luck for SCOOP..

      regards

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