[Prateek Bhartia]

Thats why dont raise with marginal hands, cause you are doubting whether you should call a 11BB shove. you should have a plan for the future actions when you raise. I think you are almost always behind his range, given there are no dynamics. I guess fold, KQs I think its a call..

[Vinay Suchede]

hmm.. am not sure about pre here.. opening with KJo (dont think its correct..await other opinions though) .. you are almost committed to call (with a hand which plays bad against shoving ranges) against a button shove who has the jam stack.. if villain is a nit you can fold here.. if he is a reg .. you are math committed to make this crying call..

[Laveena Belani]

i think opening is fine if u got a tight image and r trying to steal the blinds n stuff … but I’d NEVER EVER call a 3-bet shove with KJo … cos its a real shitty hand to go to flop with !!! Besides, u r decently stacked so no point denting it with such a marginal hand … I think fold to 3-bet shove

[Prabhat Mukherjea]

Raise and call are both very standard. Can’t fold to a 11 BB shove ever, and really…lol at the idea that we shouldn’t open KJ from MP because someone might shove 11 BB with a range that has us crushed. If his shove has us in bad shape, he is shoving almost never (just not enough hands in a range that crushes this) and we should be opening superwide.

Laveena, not calling KJ is burning money at a limit where people will shove QJ and JT and a huge number of pairs that you are flipping with. In any case folding KJ getting 2:1 is really poor. I feel that you are overvaluing the importance of absolute hand strength and undervaluing basically everything else in this situation.

Anything other than raise/call here is very very poor in my opinion.

[Simon Mint]

I agree 100% with Prabhat here. This looks like the late stage of the tourney and BTN is almost obligated to shove with any 2 here or he’s not gonna make the money (assuming we’re close to the bubble). I’d take my chances with KJ any day in this particular situation.

[Vinay Suchede]

the call is still read based imo.. I did the math before posting.. its 32K to call to win a pot of 55.5K .. less than 2:1.. (1.73:1).. if he is so nitty that he has waited all this time (dropping to 11bb) to make this move, I would really have his range as very tight.. plus he is doing it from the button.. he can wait for a few more hands before pushing.. this all inclines to a very strong range.. if you give him a strong tight range we are 65-35 dog here.. math will say this call is slightly -ev (only slightly though).. however if this is the case (that he is a nit) we should be opening a lot wider with open/fold in mind..
On the other hand if he is a reg.. and due to some other reasons reached 11bb, this is a call..

[Prabhat Mukherjea]

Vinay, I just cant agree here. First of all we know nothing about this player, and there are enough ways to reach 11bbs that it is in my opinion, pretty silly to conclude that he is more likely to be a nit simply because he has 11 BB. Secondly, you know there are lots of shades in between a super-tight nit and a wide shoving reg and there are also plenty of shades beyond, where people are just shoving stupidly loose. When you know nothing about a player, assuming he is a nit only isn’t much better than assuming he is a retard, so I disagree with your methodology.

Secondly, we have to give him an insanely tight range- top 7/8% only before we can say this is a bad call (and even then only marginally as you admit) and there is no way in hell you can conclude an unknown will be this tight.

Thirdly, this is contradictory with your earlier point where you said that opening is bad because he is gonna jam on us often. Look what you guys seem to be doing is, not wanting to open because he is gonna shove often and then, when he does shove still conclude that he must be very strong…you can’t have it both ways…

against a button shove who has the jam stack..

if he is so nitty that he has waited all this time (dropping to 11bb) to make this move, I would really have his range as very tight.. plus he is doing it from the button..

There is an inconsistency in these two lines of thought….

Finally saying its read based is a copout…we know we have no reads and have to make a decision and in that situation, this is never anything but a call.

[Vinay Suchede]

Prabhat.. I was unsure about opening KJo here .. thus I told OP to await other opinions.. infact in my second post I have written we should be opening even wider if villain is nitty (with open/fold line) … actually am interested to know if you would open/fold any hand here?.. with regards to 11bb, I have mentioned in the post there could be other ways to reach 11bb..

reasons for the read based call.. if the villain has nitted up and reached 11bb waiting for higher payouts.. think we can put his range on top 7/8% .. this is also considering the spot.. (on the button where he could have waited a few more hands before pushing)

[Prabhat Mukherjea]

Given the absence of reads, I would neither narrow my opening range nor open/fold anything. Vinay, honestly, you can’t make a read-based decision when there is no read, and in many situations, there won’t be a read. If you give me a cast iron read that this guy is a nit you can fold. Otherwise you have to call.

[Arturo]

thanks guys for very healthy debate here, i would say i was thinking from adi’s point of view, adi told us if we open and 10bb shoves us and if we getting around 2:1 insta shove with any marginal hand and i took my decision on his view. If i was played this before our mentorship prog, i have not called this one. Any ways I still have M=9 After losing this hand, if i won this hand i would close to chip lead and have better chance to on final table with domination chips. About previous history about this particular villain he defended his BB with QTo with 20bb. This time he have AQs but shouldn’t be result oriented.

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